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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 11:47:00 -
[1]
It is illegal to access a system that you do not have permission to access.
It is illegal to take data from a hacked system.
It is illegal to do illegal things with stolen data.
It is NOT illegal to do legal things with stolen data, if you took no part in the inital crime of stealing the data.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 12:04:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: dexingtonUnder EU law it's illegal for two companies two share customer data without the customer knowing and agree to this.[/quote
It is illegal to GIVE the data without customer permission.
It is NOT illegal to use data that has been made public through illegal activity, as long as you took no part in the theft and public release of that data.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: dexington
You don't seem to understand that someone broke into computer system and stole the database.
We do understand, but that someone was not CCP.
Originally by: dexington
You are not allowed to break the rules just because it's in your own best interest.
The rule is, you can not hack someone's computer. You can't steal their information. You can not post the stolen information to a public forum.
AND!
Once someone you are in no way affiliated with, has hacked a computer, stolen information, and posted it to a public forum, you may use this now publically available information, as long as you are not breaking some other law, like copyright or national security or banking fraud....
It would not be illegal for CCP to ban users for RMT. Therefor, using publically available data that they had no part in the theft or posting of, to ban RMTers, is not breaking the rules.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:19:00 -
[4]
Originally by: dexington
They just can't do it based on a database they have no legal right to use, if it's illegal for them to be in possession of iskbank database which was obtained by commiting a crime, they may be commiting a crime by using it.
Wrong. Who ever stole it had no right to do that. Whoever posted it to a public forum had no right to do that.
Once it is public information, it may be freely used for any non-illegal activity.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:37:00 -
[5]
My guess is that CCP wishes the issue would just go away.
Each account that exists just to bot, is a paid account CCP is making money off of.
Sure, they could dedicate lots of resources to catching these botters and ISK selelrs, but that would be like cutting off thier nose to spite their face.
Better is to make us all believe they are doing something so that we won't emo-rage quit over the unfairness of you enemy making 20 billion ISK a day botting drone regions or spending $1000 real to replace a fleet of super caps that it would take you a year to rebuild using EULA compliant methods, while not actually doing anything.
What are we willing to do? Emo-rage-quit if CCP does not make a concerted effort to permaban all botters? Or put up with it? CCP isn't going to cut off their nose to spite their face unless the face is going to stop paying.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:39:00 -
[6]
Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 10/03/2011 16:49:13
Originally by: dexington
The database contain personal information given to iskbank by it's customers, you can just claim it as public available information when you are in possession of them only because someone hacked the computer system and send you a copy.
If they just send you a copy, no. But if they post it to a public forum that is publically available, it is public information.
iskbank can go after the hacker. iskbank can go after whomever posted it to a public forum.
However, once it is public, it is public, free to all to use for any non-otherwise illegal activity. That's the law.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:47:00 -
[7]
Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 10/03/2011 16:47:51
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 17:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: dexington
The database is the property of iskbank, it's clearly not part of the public domain.
Public domain is a legal term regarding copyright law. Copyright is a civil matter, not legal matter. If iskbank can produce a document showing the content of the database was copyrighted, then they may be able to force evenews to take it down.
But to go after CCP in civil court for using the data, assuming it was properly copyrighted prior to release (which is HIGHLY unlikely) is a stretch.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 18:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: dexington
That is the same as saying you can publish eg. music in mp3 form on a public site and then it's no longer anyones property and now part of the public domain, unless you live in china things don't work that way.
music is copyrighted. It is highly unlikely that the content of this database was copyrighted.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 18:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: General Mujahideen Husseni
I also agree that it's not entirely compromising when I access a supermarket's database of customers and their information. Identitiy theft? Pffft. Doesn't exist.
Identity theft is a crime whether you stole the information or got it out of public information like property deeds, phone book or other publically available information.
It is that act of identity theft (pretending to be another person) that is the crime, not getting the name and number from a public posting of stolen information.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:09:00 -
[11]
Remember, it is CCP that has the copyright to EVE. They grant you the right to download and run the EVE client but ONLY under the terms of the EULA. They allow you to access the system, but ONLY under the terms of the EULA.
Any use of EVE copyrighted materials that violates the EULA is breaking the copyright laws. Any access to EVE servers that violates the EULA is, by definition, illegally accesing their system.
You log into EVE to transfer ISK to someone in exchange for real worl money, you have legally just comitted an illegal access of their system. Legally, this is hacking.
You log into eve to "spend" ISK that was transferred to you in exchange for real world money, you have just illegally accessed CCP's computers and are guilty of hacking.
You use the name ISK or EVE or the name of any object from the game or any other copyrighted materials to make money, you have violated EVE's copyright rights.
Let's assume for a moment that the data is real, and there is some defacto copyright of the data. Let's assume CCP uses the info to look into logs and finds that indeed the player received items as specified and then bans the players.
1) iskbanks's copyright would be void as it is the product of illegal activity (the access of CCP's systems for purposes other than those granted in the EULA and the use of CCP's copyrighted material for purposes other than authorized.)
2) Assume a copyright exists (unlikely) and is not void (highly unlikely). iskbank's copyright does not transfer to the player. CPP would not be violating the rights of the players' by using the materials.
3) If a copyright exists and if it is not void (which it would be), then iskbank MAY have a civil tort against iskbank for using the copyrighted materials to damage iskbank's ability to do business.
But, what is their case? While we were violating copyright laws and illegally accessing CCPs computer systems... dismissed!
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
figuring out ways to make the game less isk grindy so people feel less need to have to buy isk to compete.
You mean... like.... PLEX!
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Overtly pursuing the people on the list might not be worth the potential legal costs
What legal cost?
What would iskbank's case be? While violating copyright laws and illegally accessing CCPs computers we created a database.... dismissed.
What would the player's case be? While violating EULA and therefore illegally accessing CCP's computers.... dismissed.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Barakkus
While I'd like to think that was the case, I bet it was just a GM thinking "Wow I hit gold!!!" then runs around the office jumping up and down about the whole situation only to be sternly reminded by a senior GM they can't be party to illegal actions 
If the database is ligit, then it is itself the product of illegal activity... accessing CCPs computer systems in violation of EULA = hacking. Claims to ownership are void if the product itself is the result of illegal activity.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
I mean like make the grind for isk fun and enjoyable and not the snore fest it currently is.
I'm sure the PVPers would disagree that more PVE content is what EVE needs.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.11 18:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
the rage seems to be directed at people who spend large amounts of cash to get isk so they can simply log in and do as they wish which infuriates the 'legit' players who have to grind for their isk and feel like they can't compete against the people who buy isk.
+10 for you as you make a very strong point.
My only counter is, and I'll admit up front, that it is pretty weak...
The PLEX mechanism applies market forces, putting caps on each side.
With PLEX, there has to be a PLEX buyer (someone wanting to play for free) for the legal PLEX seller (someone looking to get ISK in exchange for real). If lots of people want to throw lots of real at the game, then the price of PLEX will fall until they are so cheap that people stop throwing real at the game or more people are willing to play for free by grindng ISK to buy all those PLEX. 1 person playing free for every subscription worth of RMT converted to ISK.
With out-of-game RMT for ISK, there is no balancing force. The botters can grind 40 bots at a billion ISK per bot per day, then sell a trillion ISK a month to thousands of players. 40 to 1000s vs. 1 to 1.
And, even if this is just to "crush the competition", the so what? Who should get the RMT? EVE who spends millions of dollars developing and operating the game, through a mechanism that lets people play for free? Or some fly-by-night hacker in Moldova with little cost other than electricity and internet to operate their illegal bots?
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.11 18:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Originally by: Angst IronShard
Iskies buyers and sellers should be banned out the game.
Include plex sellers and buyers too. I mean is there any real practical difference between the supercap blob that hotdropped you which was funded with illegaly bought isk vs legally bought isk?
One funded the company that develops and operates the game via a mechanism that lets thousands of people play for free(on someone elses dime), and the other funded a criminal enterprise and encourages the development of other distasteful things like botters.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.03.11 18:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
I mean I didn't realise so many people cared so deeply about ccp's profitability that they would get all upset when some outside company gets the money for the isk instead of ccp. 
CCP's profitability is what pays for new feature development, for more powerful servers, for more bandwidth, for everything.
EVE's profitability is what pays for the tiger team that is working on reducing lag. It pays for simple things like a meta level column in items list, and bigger things like the rework of moms into supercaps.
Every EVE player should put CCP's profitability at the top of their priorities.
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